Michael Eric Dyson on Affirmative Action, DEI and a 2nd Trump Presidency


Author and university professor Michael Eric Dyson is known for his rapid-fire commentary — threading hip-hop lyrics with Bible verses in his signature alliteration to make points about politics, pop culture and racial justice in America.

The Vanderbilt University professor was in Chicago recently for multiple Martin Luther King Jr. Day observances, including the city’s interfaith breakfast last week.

WTTW News’ Brandis Friedman sat down with Dyson to get his thoughts on affirmative action, DEI and a second Donald Trump presidency. In classic Dyson fashion, he did not hold back in his critique.

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WTTW News: What do you think the next four years will be like? What are some of the biggest challenges going to be?

Michael Eric Dyson: Well, first of all, he’s inheriting a tremendously robust economy. Much like the former President Obama said, ‘Yeah, you did great because I gave you a great economy.’ He’s inheriting yet another economy. Now during the election, you know, as politicians on both sides, to be fair, want to do, it’s doom and gloom for what the existing administration has done. We promised something different, but he’s inheriting a rather robust economy. And if he can do anything to continue that, we would obviously be supportive.

At the same time, he’s already developed a list of people that he wants to go after: Liz Cheney and John Bolton — and these are not raving left-wingers. These are not radical libertarians or even liberals. So the tragedy of the next four years will be that if we’re not able to have government as usual, where the institutions prevail over any particular individual administration — although, they’re always impacted by them — and we have to both be conscious of the fact that he is the president of the United States of America, but we must also oppose those things that we think are deeply and profoundly problematic, and unfortunately, there’s probably going to be a lot to oppose.

You taught at some of the country’s most elite universities, and since Trump’s first administration, we know the Supreme Court has struck down the use of race in college admissions. Some universities have already started to notice fewer Black and Hispanic students enrolling. Have you noticed a difference at Vanderbilt?

Dyson: Yeah, well, not immediately because Vanderbilt practices a variety of commitment to diversity that is not vulnerable to what the law says. You know, you can, you can obey the law. But my point is, do you want the commercial or the product? You don’t have to pronounce or announce what it is that you’re attempting to do because it’s important to have education that is diverse along a number of axes — race, class, gender, sexual orientation, geography, region, religion. So those things make for a vibrant classroom, and you don’t have to offend any law of affirmative action to achieve those goals. You have to be conscious, you have to be intentional, and you have to understand what makes for a vibrant classroom. Even before DEI or affirmative action, you know, when there were no Black people involved and no women, how did they decide who got into Harvard, Princeton, Yale, right? ‘Hey, you’re a violin player from Oklahoma, and we don’t have people coming from there. We need you.’ So there was already a diversity of application even before gender or race came into play. And I suspect we’ll have to lean upon those issues.

Having said that, there’s no denying looking at Harvard, I think in their law school class, an extreme diminishment of the pool of diverse people there. That’s to the detriment of America, right? If America ultimately said, ‘Hey, we don’t want Black people, you know, in these arenas,’ then we’d have no Michael Jordan in basketball because without affirmative action, Michael Jordan would have never played in the NBA. Without the conscious attempt to bring in people who had been historically denied, we would have never enjoyed his skills … so my point is that it is extremely important to continue to practice a variety of diversity in education even beyond the official or legal restrictions of affirmative action.

And at the same time companies are slashing their DEI initiatives. Many had been quietly scaling back long before this most recent election because there are some reflections that people think that some of the big companies are doing it to cozy up to President Trump. What do you think of that? Were these companies sincere in the first place?

Dyson: Probably not, or they were, but they feel intimidated, and they run, hide at the first prospect of resistance. I think Black people and others have to practice DEI, too: Deny Economic Investment, right? Get involved in a boycott yourselves. I mean, if Walmart thinks that it’s OK to cease your program, it’s alright for us to cease our economic investment. ... We can ask Walmart: You can get rid of the official DEI program but do the things that you know are consciously encouraging your customers, a number of whom are people of color, to be involved.

So again, there are ways around the legal restrictions that have been imposed. And the affirmative action rulings for education have been taken so rapidly and readily by these companies. Those were not the rulings for them, but they figured, ‘Well, let’s go along and do the same thing.’ Well, let’s do the same thing when a righteous cause is championed and you want to see the kind of spreading of a good idea, which is diversity, which is having a workforce that reflects those who constitute our communities or those who are our consumers. There’s always a way to get to the issue of diversity in a creative fashion if you have the desire or the intent and for those corporations that don’t do it, we’ve got to make them pay.

What do you think of the state of American cities right now? Do you think some of those cities that are mostly governed by Democrats will suffer under a Trump administration?

Dyson: Oh, there’s no question: He’s a vitriolic, vicious man. He’s small-minded and petty. He’s a lugubrious leech. He is a foolish fascist. He is a dim-witted dictator, but that’s on a good day.

Tell me what you really think!

Dyson: I mean, this is what he is. This is what he has done. He has performed these things. However, I would say to those mayors, a number of whom happen to be African American, if you have an opportunity to work with the man and forge a connection in a way that’s beneficial to your city, go ahead. I’m a social critic. My job is to bring the force of critique to bear. But here we are in Chicago: Think about Brandon Johnson, an extraordinary man, intelligent, well-versed, a union man, a man who’s an educator. Nobody is immune to criticism, so everybody in that office has to be prepared. But the piling on, when I think about Brandon Scott in Baltimore, who was seen as a DEI mayor because a bridge collapsed because of a ship being out of place, right? Or Karen Bass with the wildfires there in Los Angeles and being pummeled. Or Brandon Johnson here in Chicago, despite the economic reversals of fortune for those who are less fortunate and vulnerable into something more powerful. 

So we’ve got to say on the one hand, let’s pay attention to the way in which there’s a relationship between the federal government and the local government and what goodies you can derive for your people. And at the same time, hold up proudly the banner of commitment to the vulnerable and cities will suffer to a degree, but they’ve got to fight back. I mean what Trump has shown is that if you are willing to raise your voice and speak up and say what you believe is true, there are at least enough people who will rally around you to be able to defend your position and forge a kind of coalition that might have significant political impact in the real world.


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